Doug Hoffman, NY 23 election, New York Election Statutes, NY Law, Impossible numbers certified, Richard Hayes Phillips PhD, St. Lawrence County Board of Elections, Negative numbers, Phantom voters, Computerized voting

****  Important update below  ****

**** Correction by John Charlton, November 27, 2:30 PM ET ****

From The Gouverneur Times.

“Impossible Numbers Certified in NY-23

Written by Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D.   
Wednesday, 25 November 2009 15:32”

“The election results certified by the St. Lawrence County Board of Elections for New York’s 23rd Congressional District contain some numbers that are mathematically impossible.  These numbers were requested in person and transmitted by e-mail just hours before certification on Tuesday, November 24th, 2009.

For six election districts in St. Lawrence County (the 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 7th districts in Canton, the 14th district in Massena, and the 2nd district in Oswegatchie) negative numbers appear in the column for “blank” ballots, known in other states as “undervotes.”

Blank vote counts are ballots in which the voter did not choose any candidate in a given election and are determined by subtracting the total number of votes cast for the candidates from the number of voters who completed ballots.  The remaining number would be those voters who didn’t cast a vote for that election.

In Canton’s 7th district, the certified results show a total of 148 ballots cast. The results of those votes were counted as 88 votes for Owens, 11 votes for Scozzafava, and 80 votes for Hoffman.  The problem is that these numbers add up to 179 votes counted for the candidates, and there were only 148 ballots cast;  St. Lawrence County certified these numbers to the state as accurate with the number of ‘blank’ ballots reported as -31.

The Board of Elections stated repeatedly that their numbers add up, and strictly speaking, they do.  But negative numbers should not be required to make this happen. 

Election analysts refer to this phenomenon as “phantom voters,” because they are apparitions.  They do not actually exist.  There can never be more votes counted for any office than the number of actual voters who cast ballots.  There could be one or two, if on occasion an actual voter forgot to sign the poll book, but never 31.”

“Fundamentally, the fault does not lie with the Board of Elections, although perhaps they should have noticed the negative numbers before certifying them.  The fault lies with computerized vote counting and our willingness to trust it.
It has already been reported that zero votes were incorrectly reported in numerous precincts in Jefferson, Madison, and Oswego Counties for one of the Congressional candidates, and that voting machine failures occurred in dozens of polling places in at least three different counties.
In St. Lawrence County, ballots from eight polling places had to be hand counted due to voting machine failure.  Machines in Louisville, Waddington, Clare, and Rossie “broke” early in the voting process on Election Day.  Republican Commissioner Deborah Pahler said that the machines kept “freezing up… like Windows does all the time”.  Machines in Hermon, Lawrence, Colton’s 2nd district, and Massena’s 1st and 2nd districts failed to print the results. Frank Hoar, an attorney for the Democratic Party, initially ordered the impoundment of malfunctioning machines but released the order on November 5th so that Bill Owens could be sworn in to Congress in time to vote on the House health bill on November 7th.
Electronic vote counting is much too vulnerable to failure and/or manipulation.  If a mechanical (lever-style) machine breaks down, the failure is visible, and only the one machine is affected.  With electronic vote counting, one person can change the outcome of an election and not leave a trace.  This has been shown over and over again in scientific studies, including those commissioned by the Secretaries of State in California and Ohio.
But more than that, how can we have a democracy if we cannot know if the vote count is accurate?  If election officials cannot know, and if the candidates cannot know, and if the voters cannot know that the official results are true and correct, why even have an election?  Why go through the motions?”

Read more:

Several days ago, as I am prone to do, I read the New York State Election statutes. Before the election in 2008 I read almost half of the 50 states election laws. Here are some of those statutes regarding voting irregularities. Read them and decide if any of them apply to the chicanery that has taken place.
” §  17-106.  Misconduct  of election officers. Any election officer who
  wilfully refuses to accord to any duly  accredited  watcher  or  to  any
  voter  or candidate any right given him by this chapter, or who wilfully
  violates any provision of the election law relative to the  registration
  of  electors or to the taking, recording, counting, canvassing, tallying
  or certifying of votes, or who wilfully neglects or refuses  to  perform
  any  duty  imposed  on  him  by  law,  or  is guilty of any fraud in the
  execution of the duties of his office,  or  connives  in  any  electoral
  fraud, or knowingly permits any such fraud to be practiced, is guilty of
  a felony.

§  17-108.  False  affidavits;  mutilation,  destruction  or  loss  of
  registry list or affidavits. 1. Any person who wilfully  loses,  alters,
  destroys or mutilates the list of voters or registration poll ledgers in
  any  election  district,  or  a  certified  copy thereof, is guilty of a
    2. An applicant for registration who shall make, incorporate or  cause
  to  be  incorporated  a  material  false statement in an application for
  registration, or in any challenge or other  affidavit  required  for  or
  made  or filed in connection with registration or voting, and any person
  who knowingly takes a  false  oath  before  a  board  of  inspectors  of
  election,  and  any  person  who  makes  a material false statement in a
  medical  certificate  or  an  affidavit  filed  in  connection  with  an
  application for registration, is guilty of a misdemeanor.
    3. A person who shall wilfully suppress, mutilate or alter, or, except
  as  authorized  by  this chapter, shall destroy, any signed challenge or
  other affidavit required  for  or  made  or  filed  in  connection  with
  registration or voting, and any person who, except as authorized by this
  chapter,  shall  remove such an affidavit from the place of registration
  or polling place, is guilty of a felony.
    4. A person other than the applicant who, prior to the filing  of  the
  application,  shall  willfully suppress, mutilate, materially alter, or,
  except as authorized by this chapter, destroy a signed  application  for
  registration by mail, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

§  17-120.  Misconduct  in  relation  to certificate of nomination and
  official ballot. A person who:
    1. Falsely makes or makes oath to, or fraudulently defaces or destroys
  a certificate of nomination or any part thereof; or,
    2. Files or receives for filing a certifiate  of  nomination,  knowing
  that any part thereof was falsely made; or,
    3.  Suppresses  a certificate of nomination which has been duly filed,
  or any part thereof; or,
    4. Forges or falsely makes the official indorsement of any ballot; or,
    5. Having charge of official ballots, destroys, conceals or suppresses
  them, except as provided by the law. is guilty of a felony.

§  17-124.  Failure  to  deliver  official ballots. Any person who has
  undertaken to deliver official ballots to  any  city,  town  or  village
  clerk,  or  inspector  as  authorized  by  this chapter, and neglects or
  refuses to do so, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

§  17-128. Violations of election law by public officer or employee. A
  public officer or employee who knowingly and wilfully omits, refuses  or
  neglects  to  perform  any  act  required  of him by this chapter or who
  knowingly and wilfully refuses to permit the doing of any act authorized
  by this chapter or who knowingly  and  wilfully  hinders  or  delays  or
  attempts  to  hinder  or delay the performance of such an act is, if not
  otherwise provided by law, guilty of a felony.

§ 17-130. Misdemeanor in relation to elections. Any person who:
    1.  Acts  as  an  inspector  of election or as a clerk at an election,
  without being able to read or write the  English  language,  or  without
  being otherwise qualified to hold such office; or,
    2.  Being  an inspector of election, knowingly and wilfully permits or
  suffers any person to vote who is not entitled to vote thereat; or,
    3. Wilfully and unlawfully obstructs, hinders or delays,  or  aids  or
  assists  in  obstructing  or  delaying  any  elector  on  his  way  to a
  registration or polling place, or while he is attempting to register  or
  vote; or,
    4.  Electioneers on election day or on days of registration within one
  hundred feet, as defined herein, from a polling place. Said  prohibition
  shall  not  apply  to  a  building  or room that has been maintained for
  political purposes at  least  six  months  prior  to  said  election  or
  registration  days,  except  that  no  political  displays,  placards or
  posters shall be exhibited therefrom. For the purposes of this  section,
  the  one  hundred feet distance shall be deemed to include a one hundred
  foot radial measured from the entrances, designated by the inspectors of
  elections, to a building where the election  or  registration  is  being
    5. Removes any official ballot from a polling place before the closing
  of the polls; or,
    6.  Unlawfully  goes  within  the  guard-rail  of any polling place or
  unlawfully remains within such guard-rail after having been commanded to
  remove therefrom by any inspector of election; or,
    7. Enters a voting booth with any voter or remains in a  voting  booth
  while  it  is occupied by any voter, or opens the door of a voting booth
  when the same is occupied by a voter, with the intent to  watch  such  a
  voter  while  engaged  in  the  preparation  of  his  ballot,  except as
  authorized by this chapter; or,
    8. Being or claiming to be a voter, permits any other person to be  in
  a  voting booth with him while engaged in the preparation of his ballot,
  except as authorized by this chapter, without openly protesting  against
  and asking that such person be ejected; or,
    9.  Having  lawfully  entered  a  voting booth with a voter, requests,
  persuades or induces such voter to vote any particular ballot or for any
  particular candidate, or makes  or  keeps  any  memorandum  of  anything
  occurring  within  the  booth,  or  directly  or  indirectly, reveals to
  another the name of any candidate voted for by such voter; or,
    10. Shows his ballot after it is prepared for voting, to any person so
  as to reveal the contents, or solicits a voter to show the same; or,
    11. Places any mark  upon  his  ballot,  or  does  any  other  act  in
  connection  with his ballot with the intent that it may be identified as
  the one voted by him; or,
    12. Places any mark upon, or does any other act in connection  with  a
  ballot  or  paster  ballot,  with  the  intent that it may afterwards be
  identified as having been voted by any particular person; or,
    13. Receives an official ballot from any person other than one of  the
  clerks or inspectors having charge of the ballots; or,
    14.  Not being an inspector of election or clerk, delivers an official
  ballot to a voter; or,
    15. Not being an inspector of election,  receives  from  any  voter  a
  ballot prepared for voting; or,
    16.  Fails to return to the inspectors of election, before leaving the
  polling place or going outside the guard-rail, each ballot not voted  by
  him; or,
    17.  Wilfully  defaces,  injures,  mutilates, destroys or secretes any
  voting maching which belongs to any municipality or board  of  elections
  for use at elections, and any person who commits or attempts to commit a
  fraud in the use of any such voting machine during election; or,
    18.  Not  being  lawfully authorized, makes or has in his possession a
  key to a voting maching which has been  adopted  and  will  be  used  in
  elections; or,
    19.  Not  being  an inspector or clerk of election, handles a voted or
  unvoted ballot or stub thereof,  during  the  canvass  of  votes  at  an
  election; or,
    20.  Intentionally  opens an absentee voter’s envelope or examines the
  contents thereof after the receipt of  the  envelope  by  the  board  of
  elections and before the close of the polls at the election; or,
    21.  Wilfully  disobeys any lawful command of the board of inspectors,
  or any member thereof; or
    22. Induces or attempts to induce any poll clerk, election  inspector,
  election  coordinator,  or  officer,  clerk  or employee of the board of
  elections discharging any duty or performing any act  required  or  made
  necessary by the election law, to do any act in violation of his duty or
  in violation of the election law; or,
    23.  Not  having  been appointed or named an inspector of elections or
  clerk and not having taken the  oath  for  such  office  shall  wear  or
  display  any  button,  badge  or  emblem  identifying  or  purporting to
  identify such person as an inspector of election or clerk, is guilty  of
  a misdemeanor.

§   17-136.  False  returns;  unlawful  acts  respecting  returns.  An
  inspector or clerk of an election who intentionally makes,  or  attempts
  to  make,  a  false  canvass  of  the ballots cast thereat, or any false
  statement of the result of a canvass, though not signed by a majority of
  the inspectors, or any person who induces or attempts to induce any such
  inspector or clerk to do so, is guilty of a felony.

§  17-148.  Bribery  or intimidation of elector in military service of
  United States. Any person  who,  directly  or  indirectly,  by  bribery,
  menace  or  any other corrupt means, controls, or attempts to control an
  elector of this state enlisted in the military  service  of  the  United
  States, in the exercise of his rights under the election law, or annoys,
  injures or punishes him for the manner in which he exercises such right,
  is guilty of a misdemeanor.

 §  17-166.  Penalty.  Any person convicted of a misdemeanor under this
  article shall for a first offense be punished by  imprisonment  for  not
  more  than  one  year, or by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars
  nor  more  than  five  hundred  dollars,  or  by  both  such  fine   and
  imprisonment.  Any  person  who,  having been convicted of a misdemeanor
  under this article, shall thereafter be convicted of another misdemeanor
  under this article, shall be guilty of a felony.

 § 17-168. Crimes against the elective franchise not otherwise provided
  for.  Any  person  who  knowingly and wilfully violates any provision of
  this chapter, which violation is not specifically covered by any of  the
  previous sections of this article, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

§  17-170.  Destroying  or  delaying  election  returns.  A  messenger
  appointed by authority of law to receive and carry a report, certificate
  or certified copy of  any  statement  relating  to  the  result  of  any
  election,   who  wilfully  mutilates,  tears,  defaces,  obliterates  or
  destroys the same, or does any other act which prevents the delivery  of
  it  as  required by law; and a person who takes away from such messenger
  any such report, certificate or certified copy, with intent  to  prevent
  its  delivery,  or  who  wilfully  does  any injury or other act in this
  section specified, is guilty of a felony.

 NY State Election Statutes:

****  Update  ****

John Charlton of The Post & Email has provided some important facts.

“15,620 Missing Votes are disturbing

Let’s take a look at each race, considering simply the total votes counted, and comparing this to the total votes in the Congressional race on the same ballot:

For the State Supreme Court race:  39, 969 votes

For the NY-23 Special Election: . . . . 24, 349 votes

For County Coroner: . . . . . . . . . . . . 29, 664 votes

District Attorney: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17, 541 votes

These are the races which all used the same 102 voting machines.  Since the entire county voted for each race you’d expect nearly identical numbers, if there were identical interest in the different races.  And while that nearly never happens, the Owen-Hoffman-Scozzafava race was surely the most followed in the national and local press.

That 15,620 more votes were cast in the State Supreme Court Race than in the Congressional Race, seems simply unbelievable. That means that nearly 40% of the voters who voted, cast no vote in the Congressional Race! Unbelievable!”

Read more:


**** Correction by John Charlton, November 27, 2:30 PM ET ****

“4,200 Votes in the NY-23 race are questionable
Let’s take a look at each county-wide race, in St. Lawrence Country, considering simply the total votes counted, and comparing this to the total votes in the Congressional race on the same ballot:
For the NY-23 Special Election: . . . . . 24, 349 votes
For the State Supreme Court race:  39, 969 votes or potentially 19,986 votes*
District Attorney: . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17, 541 votes
For County Coroner: . . . . . . . . . . . 29, 664 votes or potentially 14,832 votes*

These are the races which all used the same 102 voting machines.  Since the entire county voted for each race you’d expect nearly identical numbers, if there were identical interest in the different races.  And while that nearly never happens, the Owen-Hoffman-Scozzafava race was surely the most followed in the national and local press.”

Read more:


170 responses to “Doug Hoffman, NY 23 election, New York Election Statutes, NY Law, Impossible numbers certified, Richard Hayes Phillips PhD, St. Lawrence County Board of Elections, Negative numbers, Phantom voters, Computerized voting

  1. Below is Apuzzo’s reply to Leo D. concern his quo warranto article that Donfrio attacke….please read and pass on……I think Apuzzo and Kerchner have a very well thought out case…..Please Lord let them get the justice we all deserve.

    found at……


    Puzo1 said…

    Leo Donofrio, Esq. has posted his reply to my quo warranto article at

    This is my reply which I have just posted at his blog:


    I am surprised that you state that I missed the Newman statement: “there might be cases under the civil service law in which the relator would have an interest and therefore a right to be heard.” I did not miss this point.

    First, I will remind you that during our 5-hour, March 3, 2009 meeting in my office, I was the one who pointed that language out to you and suggested that it may be a means by which a plaintiff could gain standing otherwise than by being interested in the Office of President. When I raised that point with you, you even complimented me on my theory.

    Second, you are under the mistaken impression that a case involving the civil service laws would be a quo warranto action. On the contrary, any case involving the civil service laws would not be a quo warranto action, for the plaintiff would be challenging Obama’s action related to some employment situation and indirectly attacking his title to office. Such an attack would be an indirect attack (a collateral attack), not a quo warranto action which is a direct attack against the title to office. With such an indirect attack, the plaintiff would have to overcome the de facto officer doctrine among the many other issues that would be involved in the case. Hence, the Newman statement only has relevancy if one were planning to bring an indirect attack involving an employment matter which is not a quo warranto action. You fail to recognize that the employment case is not a quo warranto action. Rather, you advocate dressing a civil service employment case with quo warranto clothing when Andrade clearly states that such an employment case does not belong in the quo warranto matrix but rather is a collateral attack to a person’s right to hold a particular office. Hence, you are mistaken in stating that I missed the most important part of the Newman holding.

    I remind you that in my article I did mention that an indirect attack challenging Obama’s action would have a better chance of getting standing than would a quo warranto direct attack under the DC Code in the DC District Court. As I explained in my article, the latter presents procedural and constitutional roadblocks which most probably cannot be overcome. In my article, I explain how the quo warranto DC Code cannot for constitutional reasons be used to remove a putative sitting President. In your three-part series brief you state that the DC Code used in the DC District Court is the only way to remove such a person. This is the biggest difference between us. I would have thought that you would have addressed this point in your response to my article rather than the other tangential issues.

    I will also inform you that the reason for my writing my quo warranto article is that you attacked me and the Kerchner case, publicly stating that we will fail in the courts, and criticized me for filing an “exotic” case rather than a quo warranto case under the DC code in the DC District Court. I do not know what could possibly be your motivation for attacking my work. I do not understand why you would attempt to undermine the efforts of others who are earnestly working to bring the Obama eligibility issue to justice.

  2. The real story here is why the Hoffman team is so willing to let it go , without any fight at all.

  3. zachjonesishome

    Good Morning! Had to go one bigger on belt hole this morning. Zach

  4. Leo has now rebutted Mario….go to his blog and it is under commets…..WTH…..I hope these two don’t start feuding now…..God help us!

  5. VOTER GATE Video

    Don’t know if this has been posted before, or not.

    Video #1 of 3 – though these are form 2004, still quite relevant.

  6. OOPS –

    Posted #2 video above.

    Here’s #1

  7. Video #3 of 3

    This is unbelievable…the lax oversight/security.

  8. Former British policeman backs Barack Obama ‘birthers’ conspiracy theory
    A former British policeman is using his Scotland Yard training to help the Birthers, a group of conspiracy theorists, in trying to unseat President Barack Obama.

    go here and read the entire story…..

  9. Patriot rips up Al Gore’s book and throws it in his face. Calls him a traitor to America.

  10. Hoffman backed off for a reason. I can’t believe that some of those idiots still voted for the Republican after she dropped out of the race. She shouldn’t have even been on the ballot. Hoffman could have easily won it because the ones who voted for S weren’t going to vote for Owens anyway. If Hoffman’s family has been threatened, I can see why he’s dropping it; however, anything that ACORN touches is rancid and should be scrutinized. Election fraud should be against the law (tongue in cheek).

  11. Nancy Peacock // November 27, 2009 at 11:34 am

    Morning, Nancy, and I agree.

    Franken made a pain of himself with recounts and ‘discovered’ votes, and I’m wondering why Hoffman isn’t doing the same if it’s so important to him.

    My guess is either threats, or a big payoff, like the one given to Landrieu for her vote. It’s all about the money.

    And I don’t buy Hoffman’s statement that he’s dropping this to look forward to 2010.


    Ya know, we talk about Iran, Venezuela, and other corrupt countries in which the people’s vote means nothing and I’m sorry to say that the U.S. is no better with the thugs we have in there now.

    Banana Republic.

  12. The South // November 27, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Hi The South,

    That was *great* and the reports were that Gore was forced to flee the book signing through a back door with We Are Change in hot pursuit banging on his car.

    Can’t find a vid of that, but would love to see it!

    Another phony. Always has been; always will be. Guess he can’t take the ‘Inconvenient Truth’ of the matter, can he?

  13. Nancy Peacock-To insure elections first Diebold and Sequoia need to be removed-they are too tainted already. Robert Wexler was our representative here in Palm Beach during Florida’s well publicized voting fiasco’s-so many I lost track. Ron Klein is now our rep. but I am going to vote for ” Fox News: LTC Allen West, one of a small but determined group of black Republicans running for seats in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2010″. I am so disgusted with the corruption in the Democratic party, it is beyond belief the garbage they have gotten away with. We here in Florida are very familiar with Bev Harris and Black Box Voting-most of us went in not knowing anything, and as you can see by the videos it was a journey into I don’t believe what I am seeing. My best guess is normal non-government people are used to working for private industry where all the numbers have to be correct, or someone is in BIG TROUBLE. With all the highly educated computer people that they showed on the video it is pitiful that Diebold and Sequoias systems are so bad, the only conclusion I can come up with is they are bad on purpose. Florida by the way now has paper ballots/optical scanners due to Robert Wexler screaming a lot.

  14. South….thanks for posting that video…..we need more people to call the SOB Gore out for the liar and traitor he is!

  15. § 17-120. Misconduct in relation to certificate of nomination and
    official ballot. A person who:
    1. Falsely makes or makes oath to, or fraudulently defaces or destroys
    a certificate of nomination or any part thereof; or,
    2. Files or receives for filing a certifiate of nomination, knowing
    that any part thereof was falsely made; or,
    3. Suppresses a certificate of nomination which has been duly filed,
    or any part thereof; or,
    4. Forges or falsely makes the official indorsement of any ballot; or,
    5. Having charge of official ballots, destroys, conceals or suppresses
    them, except as provided by the law. is guilty of a felony.

    Would that apply to the certification signed by pelosi for obama being qualified??

  16. I saw this story on 60 Minutes previously in order for the article to make sense watch the videos. When I saw it originally I thought they were overreaching now thay are paying the price. Part 1

    Dubai Debt May Be Higher Than $80 Billion, UBS Says (Update1)
    Share Business ExchangeTwitterFacebook| Email | Print | A A A By Anthony DiPaola and Chris Bourke

    Nov. 27 (Bloomberg) — Dubai, the Persian Gulf emirate whose state-run companies are seeking to defer debt payments, may owe more than the $80 billion to $90 billion in liabilities assumed by investors, UBS AG analysts said.
    “Perhaps Dubai’s debt includes sizeable off-balance sheet liabilities that imply a total debt burden well above the $80 billion to $90 billion markets have estimated so far,” Dubai- based real estate analyst Saud Masud wrote in a note. “This could imply that the debt issued by Dubai in recent weeks is insufficient to meet upcoming redemptions.”
    Dubai, which has said it will raise as much as $20 billion selling bonds to repay borrowings, said on Nov. 25 that state- run Dubai World, with $59 billion of liabilities, would ask creditors for a “standstill” agreement as it negotiates to extend debt maturities.
    The request to delay debt repayment “came as a major shock” to investors, Masud and fellow UBS London-based analyst Reinhard Cluse told clients on a conference call today. Dubai World property unit Nakheel PJSC has $3.52 billion of Islamic bonds due Dec. 14. Dubai World may seek to negotiate all its liabilities as it reorganizes the business, Masud said.
    “The Nakheel sukuk is the largest that has ever been issued,” Cluse said on the conference call. “Markets will take some time to digest this blow.”
    ‘Significant Sweetener’
    Dubai accumulated $80 billion of debt by expanding in banking, real estate and transportation before credit markets seized up last year. The second biggest of seven sheikhdoms that make up the United Arab Emirates formed a fund to help reorganize state firms and sold $10 billion in bonds to the national central bank in February.
    It borrowed an additional $5 billion from Abu Dhabi government-controlled banks Nov. 25, half the $10 billion in bonds that Dubai ruler Sheikh Mohammed Bin Rashid Al-Maktoum said he planned to raise by yearend.
    Nakheel bondholders could demand a “significant sweetener” to renegotiate the debt and look to determine which of the real estate unit’s assets they may be able to claim, according to Masud.
    There is growing interest from Persian Gulf investment funds in acquiring properties owned by Dubai entities, including Nakheel, which may be forced to sell assets to reduce debt, said Michael Atwell, head of Middle East operations at real estate broker Cushman & Wakefield.
    ‘Still Buzzing’
    “We can sense it, and we’re hoping to have some transactions from several funds with buying requirements, some over $100 million,” he said. Potential buyers may be seeking stable cash flow from buildings with long leases.
    “The city is still buzzing. Dubai won’t turn into a ghost town, but there’ll be some big restructuring and reorganization, without a doubt.”
    Seeking a repayment delay may indicate that Abu Dhabi, the U.A.E.’s largest sheikhdom, may not want to support Dubai further financially until the smaller emirate addresses internal problems at government-run companies, Masud said.
    “This could be the realization that you cannot simply buy your way out of this crisis,” Masud said.
    The request could also suggest that Abu Dhabi and Dubai have decided to seek to bolster long-term confidence in the market by forcing weaker parts of government businesses to take responsibility for bad decisions and could involve defaults at some Dubai firms, Masud said.
    Mortgage Defaults
    Dubai property developers may be liable for an estimated $11 billion required to build 40,000 homes that they have started, said Masud in an interview yesterday. That amount represents the off-balance sheet cost, or “funding gap” required to complete and hand over the properties, on which investors are now defaulting, by the end of 2010.
    Nakheel’s share of that funding gap is about $2 billion, estimated Masud. Around half of the investors in the 40,000 unfinished homes may default by the end of next year, he said.
    Mortgage defaults, which stand at about 3 percent of the total in the U.A.E., may increase fivefold to “the teens,” Masud said on the call today.
    To contact the reporter on this story: Anthony DiPaola in Dubai at; Chris Bourke in London at
    Last Updated: November 27, 2009 10:17 EST

  17. Part 2

  18. Part 3

  19. Part 3

  20. I cannot comment on the exchanges between Leo and Mario – their personal relationship is none of my business – but, as always, I will clarify the law for lay people.

    As I explained in a previous post, the only person the Newman court found sufficiently interested so as to be able to prosecute a case in quo warranto (when the state refused to initiate this ‘criminal’ prosecution) is a person who either 1) was kicked out of office before his term expired, and is trying to oust the person who now holds that office; or 2) could have a civil service claim to that office now filled by another person.

    The court made clear: no relater has sufficient interest to proceed on a quo warranto cause of action where s/he fails to establish any possible entitlement to the job s/he claims is being usurped.

    In other words, a person claiming ‘I hold a civil service position from which you have no authority to fire me’ does not file a quo warranto but rather, files a wrongful discharge complaint, citing as one of the bases for claiming unlawful discharge, ‘the person who fired me has no lawful right to hold his job.’

  21. The biggest problem with this voter fraud, the people who are honest cave in and refuse to get into the fight of their life to bring honesty in election, due to fear as well as threats. When Doug Hoffman un-conceded, not one major Conservative went to his aide. I admire him for his stance on Conservative values, however, I am not to happy with his lack of guts to fight until all votes were sorted out and counted. We have very little time to force our election officials to dump all machines and go back to paper ballets and fool proof optical scanner. I have no doubt that these machines brought us Obama and I am almost positive McCain would have been much better.

  22. OK….All conservatives need to stop submitting to the COMMIE/ATHEIST scumbags.I am so sick of these guys launching non-stop attacks on Christmas celebrations in the public square. Everyone fighting the good fight needs to put MAJOR VISIBLE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS WRIT LARGE ALL OVER THEIR PRIVATE RESIDENCES & BUSINESSES!
    Read your neighborhood rules and then get with it!
    Use rope lighting to quote religious passages appropriate for the season.
    If the atheists are chasing out all celebrations on courthouse or city halls THEN ITS TIME TO GET THE SHOW ON THE ROAD!

  23. Jacqlyn Smith……………………………..
    I have thought out our position as far as the Constitution and Bill of Rights is concerned,so please bear with me in the following line of reasoning. First We are a government OF the people,BY the people,and FOR the people. As such,WE are the government. That said we have a right afforded us in the Constitution which says that as a government we can take civil ACTION to correct the product of an ELECTED entity,when it has failed to act in representing us,either because of criminal intent,and/or political wrongdoing that is clearly against Constitutional law,and otherwise violates our interests. Further it seems to me that since we have this right which I believe is GUARANTEED by our Constitution,and Bill of Rights then we would clearly be within Constitutional law to form a civilian Army of several million people, travel to the Whitehouse ,with proper paperwork ,and place the SUSPECT under arrest. This would be only as a result of forming a special court OF the people, BY the people, and FOR the people which would hand down the indictment along with a warrant for the suspect’s arrest, for perpetrating treason,and other high crimes against the PEOPLE,of the Republic of the United States.
    Perhaps I am wrong in my reasoning,and hopefully someone will correct me.

  24. Jacqlyn Smith……………

    Can you find the email address of Mr.Sankey? I have several questions which I would like to ask him.

  25. Joy, these “machines” could not have “brought us Obama.” 1. We did not elect BO in November but rather, Electors for the D party. They voted for BO in December but, they did not have to vote for him. That is, even in those states that require Electors to vote for the party candidate whose Electors won the state’s popular vote; no “faithless Elector” has ever been prosecuted for voting another way. 2. We did not elect BO in the D Presidential preference primary election. HRC won the primary and but for the DNC Services Corporation finagling the pledged delegates – taking some from her and giving them to him AND canceling the floor vote at the Convention to eliminate the votes of her pledged delegates from vote binding states – she would have been the D nominee for POTUS.

  26. c.n.d.e. ville II

    I agree with you, Joy. The vote fraud (plus the complicity of the media and key embedded traitors), not the majority vote of the American people, slipped o. into the WH.

    o. did not win the presidential election. He did not garner the vote of the majority of the American electorate.

    (I wonder if he really even got the electoral vote. I would be interested in hearing a voice count from EVERY person who cast an electoral vote.)

    We citizens all need to be raising a big “stink” about the voting procedures in each of our precincts, starting now.

    We ourselves help to perpetuate the fraudulent procedures if we do not invest our time, energy and resources to get them examined and “purged” of the vote fraud mechanisms which are still in place.

    The citizens who voted for Hoffman also need to raise a “stink” and not back down until the accurate vote count shows that they elected him, no one else. Then, if Hoffman chooses to resign, a new election must be held, with new candidates.

    No more railroading the American electorate with pre-selected candidates.

    We cannot expect one person, one family, to stand against the onslaught of the embedded vote fraud machinery without citizen backup. We all, en masse, have to resist EVERY instance of vote fraud that comes to light.

    We are in a true battle for the ballot box and we cannot afford to give an inch of ground over even one false vote.

  27. CW:

    Thank you for all of this valuable information. Great Post! My thanks to John as well!

    I, too, read the NY voting law while I was researching “certification issues.” Therefore, I do not need to enumerate the abuses here…I will leave that to the detail-oriented posters.

    I still contend Doug Hoffman is looking at the “big picture.” Obviously, he wants to run again, and the election fraud will not only help him, but give him the “boost” he needs to re-claim his seat.

    Owens showed his cards quickly after this fraudulent election; he broke four campaign promises. Voters will remember that! And, we all know why he was rapidly sworn into office.

    Hoffman is a businessman who knows fully well the cost of litigation as well as the emotional cost on his family. IMHO, if he concentrates on 2010, he can make major changes not only to his campaign charter, but also to how he runs his campaign. He knows he has a huge Conservative following in NYS, and he can draw on that support for both himself and other Conservative candidates. Concentrating on the future to change the past is a strategy all candidates must embrace between now and the 2010 Election. Drawing on Congressional successes, the WH will be within reach for the “right” candidate.

    His candidacy has proven a Conservative can run against both a Liberal Republican and a Liberal Democrat and WIN! This reality will not only affect future Republican candidates, but will also challenge Democratic candidates who are in danger of losing their seats.

    Whatever happened that caused Doug Hoffman to concede again, he chose to forge into the future. His eye is on a permanent seat, not the temporary seat of a special election IMHO.

    Can Doug Hoffman still sue for election fraud? I will leave that answer to the experts…


    PS We have learned much from the NY-23 Special Election. We have managed to analyze what transpired and to document how it happened, however, we need to concentrate on securing the integrity of the vote for 2010 and beyond. If we do not, there will be no need to vote…our vote will be moot!

  28. Joy, I don’t know if Hoffman’s a rich man or not. But it might not have been lack of guts, but rather lack of funds. If this is the case then we can once again blame the traitorous RNC for not coming to his side and helping to fund the fight! He’s a conservative and the Republicans are SUPPOSE to be a conservative party…so I find it traitorous to one of their own, even if he didn’t run as a “Republican”, this all has me seeing red!

  29. If the DNC had no problem-separating itself from it’s own Constitution, self-imposed fair reflection in its by-laws, why would any other illegality bother them in the least. Corruption is the only answer that I can see.

  30. jbjd.
    I agree with that.
    I do wonder how big a factor voting machines were.
    Something is definitely going on and we must stay on top of this.

  31. John Charlton has corrected his numbers for the NY 23 election results.
    I have updated my article.


    A CWer pointed out to me that I missed an important note in the election results on line, which has forced me to correct the figures substantially.

    Corrected version is here”

  32. Shocking Howard Dean admits Obamacare is trillion dollar, no reform, harmful bailout

    Bill Press show, 11/24/09 Shocking Howard Dean admits Obamacare is trillion dollar, no reform, harmful bailout but he&aposs ok with that as long as he gets a public option

  33. JbJD, I’m sure by now, you know I am no fan of yours!! As for my quote on the machines”bringing in Obama” this was said in context that all these Damn machines can be manipulated and thus create false readings in all elections, as seems to be the case in NY23. You would prove yourself a SERVICE to this great Country by helping to bring out the fraud, instead of Criticizing and trying to UNDER MINE all the law suits with your NARCISSUS BEHAVIOR, “which so much resembles OBama” I Quit posting on this blog before, because of your criticism of so many and will only leave again, if Citizen Wells tells me to. It”s great to offer opinions to help the full CAUSE, but try to refrain from condemning everyone that you disagree with!!!

  34. Michelle–thanks for your Thanksgiving wishes on the previous post.

    All–still unable to be on here for very long.

  35. BREAKING NEWS – Tiger Woods has car crash at 2:30AM in Fla. I googles up “Tiger Woods” + “Dubai Investments” . Here is what I got-

  36. SueK and JS,

    Yep, that Al Gore is a crook and a crony.

    He needs to be locked up!

  37. jbjd, my mention of the machines was merely my way of saying this small area in NY has proven how these voting machines and numbers can be manipulated to win elections. As per Hillary’s position, I personally think she was in on what happened to her. She has never gone quietly before, unless shes involved in the evil around her. The point I was trying to make, if we do not rise up now against the voting machines and go to paper ballots & optical scanners we will never have an election by We The People again. It would bode you well to quit criticizing everything that everyone says and try having input yourself on the problems in the USA!!!

  38. The South – I hope you remember these anagrams –

    2- AL GORE is LA (Spanish for “THE”) OGRE( a monster who eats people.)
    3- GEORGE SOROS translates to SOS OGRE GORE

  39. PS – This proves there is a GOD

  40. I agree there is something wrong with the
    voting machines or some manipulating of them
    by a tech group of sorts. I have no idea what’s going on, but we need to get to the bottom of it
    before any more elections.
    The Rep. who dropped out in NY 23 should
    not have had her name anywhere on the ballot
    after that. That was crazy to still be listed.

  41. twe—Hi, I see you’re here. Please accept my
    special greetings and blessed Thanksgiving to
    you and yours. You and Mom are still in my
    thoughts and prayers. All the best coming your

  42. I have always believed the DNC took delegates
    from HRC to “install” the usurper—it was all
    illegal from what I saw (no expert, but it sure
    appeared to be very crooked).

  43. Hi SueK,
    If I did it correctly, pixs of
    the Cosette coming your way.
    Check e-mail.
    Al Gore has lied to the “world” about global
    warming. Why did he do it? Fame? Publicity?
    Why? It is outrageous.

  44. Hoffman MIA

    I think the voters that have become disenfranchised in that FRAUD VOTE should get together and file a Voter Class Action Lawsuit and even if Hoffman won’t contest the Fraudulent Voting maybe the Voters can organize and bring an action and investigation.

    Voters Class Action Lawsuit in NY-23 is needed.

  45. I think Al Gore should be sued class action style for instilling mass hysteria and anxiety.

    Seriously, why should this charlatan be allowed to keep even one cent of his ill-gotten wealth?

  46. Michelle,
    Did you see Carlyle’s definition last night
    on the other thread? There is a lot to the
    phrase “long legged mac daddy”— you will not
    believe what it means in total. Go back and
    read the post if you missed it. Incredible!

  47. PRWH —
    That’s an interesting idea. The people there
    should do it.

    Gore should have to go to court and
    give up the $$, too. Deceitful and has caused
    much anxiety that’s for sure!

  48. Party Guest At the White House

    In less than 24 hours we find out all about their life YET in over 2 yrs we can’t find out anything about Barry Soetoro/Barack Obama WHY???

  49. “I think Al Gore should be sued class action style for instilling mass hysteria and anxiety.

    Seriously, why should this charlatan be allowed to keep even one cent of his ill-gotten wealth?”

    Yep, I agree with you, the Nobel Peace prize winner, Algore! Also shows us that winning that prize would be an embarrassment.

  50. With Algore, don’t we all have “standing”?

  51. jbjd….Mario would like to hear from you concerning the Donofrio blog….please check out his comment section found at…..

    Below is the first comment and then there is another after this~

    Puzo1 said…

    At Citizenwells blog,

    jbjd comments as follows on the quo warranto debate currently going on between Mr. Donofrio and me:

    “I cannot comment on the exchanges between Leo and Mario – their personal relationship is none of my business – but, as always, I will clarify the law for lay people.

    As I explained in a previous post, the only person the Newman court found sufficiently interested so as to be able to prosecute a case in quo warranto (when the state refused to initiate this ‘criminal’ prosecution) is a person who either 1) was kicked out of office before his term expired, and is trying to oust the person who now holds that office; or 2) could have a civil service claim to that office now filled by another person.

    The court made clear: no relater has sufficient interest to proceed on a quo warranto cause of action where s/he fails to establish any possible entitlement to the job s/he claims is being usurped.

    In other words, a person claiming ‘I hold a civil service position from which you have no authority to fire me’ does not file a quo warranto but rather, files a wrongful discharge complaint, citing as one of the bases for claiming unlawful discharge, ‘the person who fired me has no lawful right to hold his job.’

    Leo Donofrio insists that a civil service action against Obama would give someone standing to bring a quo warranto action against him. I explained to Mr. Donofrio that such a civil service action is not a quo warranto action but rather an employment action which includes an indirect attack against Obama’s title to the Office of President. I also explained to him that such an employment action can easily establish standing to bring the matter to court.

    jbjd’s statement is entirely supportive of what I have said that a wrongful discharge suit is not a quo warranto action but rather an indirect attack (a collateral attack) on Obama’s title to his office.

  52. Maddie-yes, I saw Carlyle’s definition of Long Legged Mack Daddy, so South Side of Chicago pimp. They are in a class by themselves-no class-had I not gotten lost in city of Chicago and was approached by one of them I would have thought this person was a cartoon character. After I figured out what the fool was actually talking about I almost laughed in his face. You never see anything like that in the suburbs–it’s almost like they wear a costume and it had a cape and a hat with a feather in it-stretch limos are referred to as Pimp Mobiles in Chicago. With those idiots if you’re female and breathing you are fair game. God help young children who are runaways-they are on them like ugly on a bear.

  53. notice all the attention is on these two guests and no one is asking or prying into the other guests

  54. I read somewhere that Lou Dobbs is going to run on a 3rd party ticket for Pres? Does anyone know if this is correct? IMO, if he does, it will insure an Obama win.

  55. Peter Francisco @5:37 since he is ineligible, what law did they break? Party crashing?

  56. Maddie // November 27, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    Got ’em Maddie; AWWWW!

    Will respond via e-mail shortly.

  57. Maddie: Al Gore has lied to the “world” about globalwarming. Why did he do it? Fame? Publicity? Why? It is outrageous.

    The answer is probably the same as it would be for Botox Nancy, P-O-W-E-R! That’s the name of their game. In the meantime, they don’t care who they hurt or how many. Money is probably second with them.

    Then the Scriptures talk about those who are drunk on power, this is the type that it’s talking about, or even religious leaders who are drunk on power, same thing. It’s the power thing, and the power thing came right out of Botox Nancy’s mouth on TV in an interview. She stated flat out that she loves the power! I’m not making it up. She said it.

    These are the kinds of people who we need to watch closely. They’re really drunk on power and this will happen to them in time, they will be so high from this and will probably drop really low and do so really quickly, I hope! I hope that they fall face first right on their fat, power-hungry butts.

    In the meantime, a class action suit against Algore would be wonderful, and this may be something that Rush would love to hear too. Heck, maybe he would join in on it.

  58. whats amazing i was just thinking about tiger the other day when i heard about dubai going under. maybe tiger will go after obama for his usurping the usa and causing this crisis

  59. buraq………………………………………………..
    Al Gore will sink himself with one of his own torpedoes. His moronic behavior guarantees it.

  60. OldSalt….I am tying to get that email for you!

  61. Peter Francisco @ 5:37 re: party crashers must have been the same secret service group that checked out Obama.

  62. I’ve got something about BO that I wish could be done, just impeach that sucker. I know, I know, I know what the constitutional lawyers say. However, BO thinks that he’s eligible, I guess, so just impeach him. Period. Get rid of him (and them).

  63. Oh, not get rid of the constitutional lawyers, I mean the sickos with BO in Washington. I can name a few.

  64. Joy………………………………………

    While basically I tend to agree with you in part. Anything that uses a computerised operating system can be influenced ,even by remote devices to behave in a specific manner. Unfortunately until sombody has the golf balls to impound ALL of the machines used, and then deep pockets enough to have them examined bolt by bolt, and wire by wire,it is likely that there will NEVER be a truthful answer to what occurred at NY23. Soetoro also knows this.

  65. Kittycat,
    The global warming claim had me scared. I saw
    those pixs of the mother polar bear and the little cub having trouble getting on the small iceflot.
    Everything looked like it was melting.
    I believed it all, hook, line, and sinker. I was ready to join the watch, etc.
    Now, finding out Gore was a fraud on this, makes me sick. The films, the ads, everything–all lies. And, as you said the Nobel Prize means nothing (apparently). Make him pay.

  66. Inspirational, to say the least.

    Brought over from Oilforimmigrations site

  67. Jacqlyn Smith……………………………..

    I really appreciate your efforts.

  68. ticktock,
    Although I don’t know which party Lou Dobbs
    would run under, when he did his show on CNN
    he used to refer to himself as an “independent” from what I gathered. So he could try to do
    what you said, 3rd Party. The “outcome” could
    also be what you said, possibly. That we need
    to avoid at ALL costs!
    My question, although it sounds weird, would
    Palin run on a 3rd Party ticket in a going rogue
    move? The reason I say that is because some of the “top dogs” in the GOP don’t seem to want
    Sarah as their nominee. If this would still be their thinking, it’s a wild shot, but who knows
    what might happen.

  69. SueK—
    Thanks, Sue, right now she’s scarfing up all the
    turkey scraps she can get ahold of. The “short
    do” is new–just had a floor-length fur coat
    trimmed. It’s very time consuming keeping a
    l.a. in a full coat without mats.

  70. Weather Channel Founder And 30,000 Other Scientists Wanting To Sue Al Gore For Global Warming Fraud

    by Infidelesto on November 21, 2009

  71. Maddie,

    Then you have a right to sue too. I do too, actually. I think that we all do for one reason or another. Major deception is one thing that I can think of. Don’t even know if that would stand in today’s world since “deception” is an accepted form.

    First off, there ain’t much mankind can do to change any weather. It’s in control of Yahweh.
    Now, there is one way to change things, many countries set off atomic bombs one after another, and it will change more than the weather!

    But if you know Yahweh’s plan of salvation, he has his plans set up and has had them set up in advance for who knows how long. He has a predetermined plan. Not predestined plan as there is no predestination in the Bible, except for a mistranslation. Predetermination means that he has the road laid out, and whoever makes it will like in running a race, so to speak. You don’t know the winner, but you know there’s going to be a winner (winners).

    Anyway, many things control our weather. The sun drives our weather. Global warming, which at times in our history, has been wonderful and a blessing for growing crops, etc. Ice ages just flat are terrible. I’d rather have warming that ice ages, but I don’t have control of that either. The arrogance of mankind thinks that he can control the weather. So stupid!

    The polar bears, I’m sorry, these guys eat human beings. They have an overabundance of these suckers in places. I don’t feel sorry for them. Yeah, they’re cute, but they are cruel and you don’t want to get near one.

    It’s like poisonous snakes to me, I say kill those suckers. Get rid of them. Humans have control over the animals anyway. Kill all those poisonous snakes. There’s enough good snakes to go around to eat rats. It’s like you can kill all ticks, mosquitoes while you’re at it and fleas. I’m fighting fleas right now and have spent a ton of money on those suckers.

  72. Michelle,
    Would that photo bo standing against the building on a Chicago street corner qualify for
    the “look” of the l.l.m.d.? I thought he looked
    frightening there.

  73. JBJD………………………………………

    Like you I don’t think that the voting machines played a decisive role in the overall scheme of the fraud. I however will not say they DIDN’T play A role. The question is,how significant of a role?One of the real problems was the presence of ACORN. I personally believe that there was thousands of illegal votes cast,which nobody seems to have the willingness to prove, even though they could do so very easily. It was all a product of intentional deceit,and fraudulant procedural activity. At least this is my own personal view point.

  74. o.k., Kittycat, I’ll stay away from polar bears.
    What about the little white seals that the Eskimo

  75. I can’t help wonder what would be the outcome of a second NY23 election using only certified paper ballots.

  76. Linda from NY @6:45 Well duh, I didn’t recognize his face, but I recognized his voice, that’s John Coleman he was a weatherman in Chicago since we were little kids. Chicago is known for some really funky weather. Thanks Linda glad John is still doing weather and possible lawsuits. Lies-generate a life of their own, still the old “what fools these mortals be”.

  77. How did the party crashers get into the WH
    state dinner? Has it been figured out yet?

    If they can crash, I’d say all the American people should have the opportunity to crash as
    well. All we need is a date and time, we know the

  78. jbjd….please see my post at 6:17


    Jacqlyn Smith // November 27, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    jbjd….Mario would like to hear from you concerning the Donofrio blog….please check out his comment section found at…..

  79. It would seem that there is a need for a well trained election analyst to take a look at recent past elections in NY23,and see if there is a defineable departure from expected results anywhere along the line. Should there be a any indication of manipulation then the entire election should be deemed illegal,and a new election ordered using only paper ballots. I have a big problem with the alleged uncounted absentee ballots.

  80. Maddie @ 6:47 “look” of the l.l.m.d.? Yes, the arrogant I really getting away with something look.

  81. Linda from NY @ 6:48 how sad is this statement.
    “Once again, the American people prove themselves smarter than their government.”

  82. Obamazilla Is America’s True Nemesis, Not Fellow Patriots

    By Lloyd Marcus

  83. What ever you do, don’t fall for the FAIR TAX scam.

    It’s just replacing the old system with a new one. They want to make us feel like ‘we’ said we wanted a new fair tax system, when in fact, we don’t want any tax system.

    Read here, how the Grace Commission Report says not one dime of your tax dollars goes towards anything, except interest on the debt!

    The Fair Tax Scam

  84. Someone here got an address from an IP that was posted on Orly’s blog. I am looking to get an address from an IP, can someone help?

  85. Christmas with a Capital “C”

  86. On to Copenhagen for Obama and a climate conference with no real agenda

  87. JS, I was posting my reply to Mario on that other site at the exact time you were writing your second shout out to me, here, which I saw when I came back to let you know, I had contacted him.

    oldsalt77, I have recommended several times that we eliminate electronic voting – I have referred people to BlackBoxVotingas a good site to begin research on the perils of electronic voting. But as you know, my efforts now are still focused on election fraud viz a viz getting BO’s name on the general election ballots.

  88. Linda from NY
    “Obamazilla” Lloyd was exactly right in his article. None of us will ever find a candidate that is perfect to them, you have to concentrate on the largest issues first, then pick-off smaller issues later.

  89. Would the guys that has already threatened Barry, or anyone who threatens Barry/ Obama life have standing?

  90. REF; COMMENT 7:02

    I feel that I didn’t satisfactorily state how such a comparison would be carried out. I believe that if the demographics of the NY 23 remained fairly constant over many years, and perhaps several elections, the probable outcome could be calculated simply by comparing past statistics with the latest statistics. It is possible that there has been a large number of MEXICAN ,and other immigrants from a number of countries, who have become naturalised citizens who voted in this election. This of course is only speculation. In a district like 23 I don’t believe that it would take very many votes to dramatically change the outcome of the election..

  91. Ginger,
    That’s a good question.
    I’m no lawyer, but I would think they would.
    Anyone else on Ginger’s question?

  92. c.n.d.e. ville II

    “It was all a product of intentional deceit,and fraudulant procedural activity. At least this is my own personal view point.”
    My perspective as well.

    That vote fraud has occured is self-evident. The result of the election needs to be “suspended,” until every vote is examined and confirmed.

    Verifiable rregularites about software used in vote machines surfaced even before the presidential election.

    For us to accept ANY explanations re: NY23 without a thorough, transparent, even citizen-participatory investigation yields too much ground for future vote fraud.

    I, personally, do not buy the proffered “explanations” any more.

  93. Greg

    You need to talk with DAV. I won’t say anymore .

  94. Maddie,……………………………….

    Do you suppose that the gate crashers might have been successful simply because the WH security force no longer gives a damn about Soetoro security?

  95. jbjd // November 27, 2009 at 7:22 pm

    JS, I was posting my reply to Mario on that other site at the exact time you were writing your second shout out to me, here, which I saw when I came back to let you know, I had contacted him.


    Okay….I will check it out!

  96. Maddie…………………………..

    I like to think that it is probable that WH security personell are standing at the brink of an abyss many thousands of feet deep, with their parachutes already strapped on,and are ready to BAIL OUT on 10 seconds notice.

  97. c.n.d.e. ville II

    I just seem to want to gnaw on this one a bit more. 🙂

    Also, the very existence of vote totals (irregardless of the category) that are mathematical impossibilities sounds a HUGE warning blast in my mind.

    The errors in those machines disqualify the vote results, period. No question paper ballots are in order, with strict supervision.

    In upcoming elections, I do not want to cast MY votes on a machine that uses that software. I do not care how the discrepancies are explained away.

  98. The South, Please don’t spread such propaganda about the “Fair Tax”. It is not a scam. It is simply replacing ALL other taxes (income, employment, ect.) with a sales tax.That way, the politicians could not sneak in all the many taxes that you are paying now that you don’t even know about. And, no one can get away with not contributing (like now, only the middle income people pay the bulk).
    Pastor Manning is correct in that our current system is appalling/illegal/unfair. However, the majority of US citizens believe that we should pay taxes, so some form of taxes aren’t going away. All we can do is try to make them more fair.
    The whole system of the government spending borrowed money is another subject. That should be stopped immediately.

  99. Friday November 27, 2009 7:51pm EST.
    We have 1102 guests online.

    First the Impossible, Now the Improbable, in NY-23

  100. Maddie said:
    “The global warming claim had me scared. I saw
    those pixs of the mother polar bear and the little cub having trouble getting on the small iceflot.
    Everything looked like it was melting.
    I believed it all, hook, line, and sinker. I was ready to join the watch, etc.
    Now, finding out Gore was a fraud on this, makes me sick. The films, the ads, everything–all lies. And, as you said the Nobel Prize means nothing (apparently). Make him pay.”

    Maddie, Do you know just how big you are to say this? And you know, even tho I never believed it, I take it personally people like you have been betrayed by Gore and his ilk. We’re all in this together Maddie, and yes, we’ll all do everything we can to make him and “them” pay!

    And about Sarah…I don’t know if she’d run in a 3rd party, although I have personally heard her say that she really believes in a two party system. I get the feeling that what she’d really like to do is clean up the Republican party. She did do this in Alaska…it’s kinda like her trademark, so I think if anyone could do it, she could. But someone’s gotta make Lou Dobbs understand that while his heart is in the right place, a 3rd party run by him could have disasterous results.

  101. “o.k., Kittycat, I’ll stay away from polar bears.
    What about the little white seals that the Eskimo

    Look at it like this, Maddie, mankind has rulership totally over the animals and was given rulership and to name them in Genesis. The ability “to name” is a higher over a lesser. That’s just the way that it is.

    It doesn’t mean that mankind must go out and mass-slaughter animals for no reason. With rulership ability also comes responsibilities. Therefore, are they killing them to eat them, or are they killing them for hide? See, I don’t know about this.

    Personally I don’t eat an unclean animal, but they may not know nor understand what that means–yet! So I can’t speak for them.

    Maddie, animals don’t go to heaven, if that’s what you’re thinking, nor does mankind. Sorry, it’s the truth. We sleep in sheol (non-thought) and await the resurrection.

    I’m really sorry to break that to you because many people think that their little animals are in heaven. Not so! The only one that got the breath of life in Genesis is Adam, our first parent, and he had the divine breath of life breathed into him from Yahweh.

    Animals didn’t have this. Once they die, there is nothing in them to live on, ever. I know, it’s sad, but that’s the way that it is. Their ruach (spirit, which is power/force) that gives them their movement and helps them breathe doesn’t have the divine spark (sacred ruach=power/force.)

    But in the world to come, they won’t matter much anyway. It’s hard to think, but just love them now.

  102. Maddie and All,

    Humor break: Speaking of religion….Church Wars!

  103. Kittycat Do you believe in cremation and where our souls will go? Does it make a difference if we are buried or cremated?

  104. Paulajal,

    What you and most others don’t understand, is we already pay enough taxes at the cash register to run the most powerful military in the world.

    The 7-8.5% sales tax we pay is what funds the country now, not an income tax.

    By adding a 25% “FAIR TAX” they’re actually increasing the amount we’re paying from 7% to
    25% and it’s not necessary.

    It’s a scam to get another 18% out of us. They will make a helluva a lot more in their ponzi tax scheme now.

    Read the Grace Commission Report again.

    These pirates have just figured out a slick way to get more people to pay taxes by, increasing the amount of people who pay to 100% with the so called FAIR tax. Just like they figured out a way to get women in the work force to pay taxes with the womens rights movement.

    Rockefeller admitted it to Russo. It wasn’t about womens rights, it was about being able to tax the other half of the population.

    We don’t need any more tax than the 7-8.5% were already paying at the register.

    That’s what pays for defense, roads, schools, etc.

    Keep the regular sales tax we have now, get the politicians to stop spending money by eliminating the Federal Reserve system, and viola!

    Vote no on the FAIR TAX, it’s another scam!

  105. For all Dog and God Lovers:

  106. Yeah, I know people in this country say they want the truth of the matter, but honestly, I don’t think that they do. I know about the so-called rainbobridge, but it’s just not the truth.

    I love animals, so don’t get me wrong. I know that Yahweh created them, but it’s what makes mankind different, which you should be glad of. Otherwise, there would be no eternal life chance. You have to have that divine breath, the sacred ruach spark that is passed on through each birth, otherwise, no eternal life chance.

    It’s that spark, so very powerful, that can help us gain eternal life and become a child of Yahweh. You can help that spark grow by seeking truth, and I mean seeking the truth and living it, which is all so different than what the world teaches in its various religious systems.

    BTW, I wanted my favorite kitty to live on into eternity too, but he wasn’t going to. Doesn’t mean that I loved him any less.

  107. ms. helga // November 27, 2009 at 8:36 pm

    Hi ms. helga, and thanks!

    I have the Rainbow Bridge printed out and framed; it always brings a tear.

    We *will* see them again….

  108. Why an Income Tax is not necessary to run the
    U.S. Government.

    Read it and weep!

  109. SueK-Church Wars!
    that was hysterical.

  110. All animals have souls and go to heaven. I believe that and I always will. I’ve loved all my pets with all my heart. When they die, where does all that love go? Where does it go?

  111. Please don’t fall into the trap of pushing for these
    alternative taxing schemes; they have been around forever.

    Make that IRS check payable to stock holders of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank

  112. @Linda from NY,
    Thank you for that link about God and Dog. It was beautiful and so touching and so true!

  113. St Francis of Assis patron saint of animals and ecology. Francis is an inspiration to the love in my heart for the animals. This love for the creatures and its foundaton for the respect of all life, is an inspiration for us all.
    Saint Francis–The First Advocate for Animals
    Saint Francis was a man before his time–about 600 years to be exact. In a time when animals were last in line to be treated with any respect, Frances understood the need that respect begins with the lowliest of all. To understand the genuine holiness of Francis and his great love and respect for all creatures, consider the world in which Francis lived. Italy in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries was a place of constant war, political scheming, and, often, outright cruelty. And in that world people treated animals with even worse cruelty than they treated their neighbors. In fact, the unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering on animals was a social norm right up until the latter half of the nineteenth century, when the legal system began to adopt anti-cruelty laws.
    Francis anticipated these laws by over six hundred years. He wasn’t a mere sentimentalist about bunnies and birds and pets-he simply lived from his heart the respect for all creatures-animal and human-that Christ’s Incarnation brought into the world. Through humble divine love, Francis discovered the same compassion that human laws, centuries in the future, would require of us all. And so Francis was a perfect example, in a reverse sort of way, of the fact that “love is the fulfillment of the law.”
    Francis’ compassion for all creatures, however, was not an “anything goes” liberality. Nor was it a political attempt to advocate “diversity”-and sin. It was a compassion deeply grounded in the reverent awareness that divine Will calls us, one and all, without discrimination, to repent our sins. Just as Christ sat with sinners in order to preach to them, Francis cast his joyful love upon all that everyone might repent a life of sin and choose to live in holiness, as Francis himself had chosen. “Woe to those who die in mortal sin!” he wrote in his majestic canticle.
    May we all aspire to the holiness of life with which Saint Francis served his Creator.
    Source: Lessons from the Life of Saint Francis of Assisi, Part 9/The National Shrine of Saint Francis
    Saint Francis and the Birds
    Francis Blesses the Birds
    One of Francis’s most famous sermons is one he gave to a flock of birds. One day while Francis and some friars were traveling along the road, Francis looked up and saw the trees full of birds. Francis “left his companions in the road and ran eagerly toward the birds” and “humbly begged them to listen to the word of God.” One of the friars recorded the sermon, which overflows with Francis’s love for creation and its Creator: “My brothers, birds, you should praise your Creator very much and always love him; he gave you feathers to clothe you, wings so that you can fly, and whatever else was necessary for you. God made you noble among his creatures, and he gave you a home in the purity of the air; though you neither sow nor reap, he nevertheless protects and governs you without any solicitude on your part.”
    Thomas of Celano records that the birds stretched their necks and extended their wings as Francis walked among them touching and blessing them. This event was a turning point of sorts for Francis. “He began to blame himself for negligence in not having preached to the birds before” and “from that day on, he solicitously admonished the birds, all animals and reptiles, and even creatures that have no feeling, to praise and love their Creator

  114. I didn’t mean to make people so upset with the TRUTH. It does happen because we have had it in our minds throughout our lifetime that everyone and everything is going to bounce off into heaven. Well, is that the truth? Or do you want it to be YOUR truth? If it’s your truth, it’s not scriptural truth, so what good is it because it’s not reality? And if you hold the Bible in high regard, consider it an authority, and look to it for the truth, then it’s simply not truth. That’s all.

  115. OldSalt77—
    oldsalt77 // November 27, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    Do you suppose that the gate crashers might have been successful simply because the WH security force no longer gives a damn about Soetoro security?
    I hadn’t thought of that, but have to say
    that sounds good enough for me (and for
    America!!!!!) Boy, that very well could be it!
    Otherwise, how did these goofballs get in?

    These 2 weren’t “intel” were they??

  116. SueK & Ms Helga,
    I had a young person give me a copy of Rainbow
    Bridge when my first lhasa passed away. I cried
    my heart out, but I’ve always kept this poem.

  117. “If there are no dogs in Heaven, then
    when I die I want to go where they went.”
    – Will Rogers

  118. Maddie-old salt 77 or a publicity stunt because his numbers are so bad, to keep him in the news or to remind people how “dangerous” his job is. He is such a woos.

  119. Michelle // November 27, 2009 at 9:10 pm

    Hey Michelle,

    Some say it’s photoshopped, but it doesn’t matter; that’s one of the funniest things I’ve seen in recent memory :).

  120. Carlyle // November 27, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    Thanks for that reminder, Carlyle!

  121. SueK-cracked me up too. So funny. God’s Love is so big none of us can imagine it. Look at God’s imagination we have a universe full, and in one atom. No human mind can fathom the depths.

  122. SueK—
    Love the Church Wars–good to get some
    humor & that did it!!!

  123. When I die, I want to go to dog heaven too.

    People heaven…maybe not so much.

    I have seen some folks get really mad when I suggest that animals have souls, and they go to heaven too. And by really mad I mean REALLY MAD.

    Screw them, I know my dog has a soul, and it’s a better soul than many people I have known. Sometimes I have thought, and it pains me to admit this, that I want to go on the same day my dog goes, because I love him that much.

    Just tell the vet to make up two shots, one for him, then one for me.

  124. Michelle,

    I forgot to mention that these Churches supposedly faced one another on a busy street….

  125. “Kittycat Do you believe in cremation and where our souls will go? Does it make a difference if we are buried or cremated?”

    This is kind of like the question that Saul (Paul) was talking about the resurrection, remember? If you’re blasted all over the place, you will still be resurrected. Meaning, if you’re blow apart, die in the ocean, are burned up in a fire, blown into space, you’ll still be resurrected. This is kind of nonsense to those who study the Scriptures, I’m sorry, which is what Saul was saying too.

    But I’ll answer your question. There is no such thing as “soul.” This is pagan Greek thought and it’s unfortunate that it came into the Scriptures in that stupid translation because it implies that you are possessed. In modern-day thought, you have a soul (a separate entity) and you have a spirit (another separate entity). See what I’m saying? It’s all hogwash. Mankind’s best thing is to realize exactly what he consists of.

    For example, look:

    Gen 2:7 And Yahweh eloahim formed the man (adam) out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils (the sacred breath; neshamah) the breath of life; and man became a living soul (nephesh).

    I.e., mankind, Adam, the first man, became a living nephesh. Notice that man became a living nephesh, not that he has a soul.

    The word nephesh means, any creature (living being) that has oxygen through their bloodstream. Oxygen in the blood= a living nephesh. Not that you are a soul (separate entity) . Animals are one kind of living nephesh, mankind another one. The thing that makes us different, makes us higher than and separate and apart from the animals is what Yahweh did. It’s this:

    Gen 2:7 And Yahweh eloahim formed the man (adam) out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils (the sacred breath; neshamah) the breath of life…

    That wonderful breath of life, the one directly breathed by Yahweh, the son, by the way, the SACRED SPARK! Animals didn’t have this done to them. They are the lesser, and mankind would be like them had it not been for that sacred breath. Animals have their own internal programming done by the deity. They are totally programmed to do what they do and their survival characteristics.

    Also, mankind has his own ruach (power/force) and yet there is the sacred ruach (power/force). The ruach of mankind (including the sacred ruach that he has) combines with his nephesh to give him animation and help him have the power to move, to walk, to breath, to eat among other things.

    Then mankind has the leb/lebab; leb meaning your mental heart, mind; the lebab meaning your innermost self, your subconscious. These combine with the ruach (power/force) and your nephesh. It’s all you.

    When you die, your nephesh clings to the aphar (dust). But what’s saved and how are you resurrected? All of this is encoded to be you. Right now who you are is being encoded into your leb/lebab. When you’re raised in the resurrection, you will have your nephesh, your leb/lebab and the sacred ruach will raise YOU. It’s all you.

    Think of it kind of as a computer. It’s a good example. Your hard drive could be your leb/lebab and the power/force is the electricity that powers that computer. If it’s not plugged into the power/force (electricity) then you’re dead. Once the power is plugged in, you’re alive, but you must have that hard drive and memory going or does it work?

    So what does this mean to each of us? It means that the more you practice now in the eternal commandments, seek the truth and try to live by it, the more you try to do the right things, seek to gain integrity, justice, justification, good works, etc., you are on the right path to gaining your salvation. You’re building up those qualities that you need. Salvation will not be for now, but what you do in this time can affect you after the general resurrection.

    This is a long journey and a lot of study. It takes years to know this, so I’m cutting all of this way short. It’s doubtful that anyone will listen anyway.

    Take it from this one verse, which I never like to give just one, honestly, because that’s not how it works:

    Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear (i.e., respect) eloahim, and keep His commandments; for this applies to every man (the adam; i.e., everyone, men, women, children).

  126. SueK-I re-read it-I’m still laughing-now you tell me they face each other. I wonder who is going to get the last word. The rocks are in heaven now too, so lets see where they go from here. Word has it heaven is so wonderful, once we get back there who would want to come back here.

  127. SueK -thanks for the laughs. Have to go to bed coming down with a cold.

  128. Michelle,
    Thank you for the post of St. Francis. He is one of my favourite saints.

    You are a dear. I enjoy reading your posts.

  129. Michelle // November 27, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    Hee, hee, Michelle…Church Wars-opposite each other!

    Ya, let’s see if there’s a sequel sometime soon :).

    OK, you know what to do for the cold, right? Get that apple cider vinegar and honey on it right away; you’ll be dancing the Tango again in no time.


  130. Michelle,
    Thank you for the St. Francis posting.
    What an inspiration St. Francis is. Thanks for
    reminding us.

  131. When I was a child Monsignor Cleary told me that animals go to heaven. I’ve always believed it, even before he told me that. ( He was a very good friend to my parents for many years and often came to our house.)
    That little video actually made me cry a little. It was so sweet and it makes me miss our dog. He was malamute and timberwolf. We had to put him down in 1985 because he had spinal stenosis and couldn’t get up. I stayed with him so the vet could get the Xrays done because he wouldn’t stop howling. …my last act of love. Suffice it to say that my mother never got over it. I miss that dog so much and sometimes I dream about him.

  132. Buraq ’08—

    Your post is very loving. I understand, and that’s the way I feel about my pets, too.
    I agree with you. Take care and God bless
    you & your dog. No one should get mad at
    you for your beliefs!

  133. Buraq ’08 // November 27, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    You’re coming through loud and clear, Buraq! I wish you many, many more happy years together!!

  134. Buraq ’08,
    I agree with you as well.
    God Bless you and Your Dog!

    I also like the quote that Carlyle posted on Will Rogers. It’s a keeper.

  135. Speaking of dogs , we had snow flurries today , everything is brown , the roses , flowers,all long gone .

    Yesterday morning I did notice one large red rose , what’s even more strange is were the rose bloomed.

  136. The South, You are misstating what the Fair Tax is- it is not in addition to taxes we already pay- it is instead of those taxes- ALL of those taxes. That is why special interest groups and politicians are against it. You are falling into the propagandist’s trap. Read the Fair Tax. While I agree with you about the income tax and all others (they are unfair/illegal/outrageous), it is not helpful to discourse to be uneducated about alternatives (and while I am personally against most taxes, we are not going to be allowed to get rid of all of them, we need to be able to discuss alternatives).

  137. Army D.A.V. @ 10:18

  138. Army D.A.V.,
    Maybe you’ll have one more Indian Summer if the snow doesn’t stay.

  139. *********** BREAKING NEWS *************

    Text messages from government officials have surfaced today proving to the minute that they knew the attacks would occur and what time to the minute the towers would be demolished .

    They are still uploading more texts. this is some pretty damning stuff.

    Here’s the actual text messages….

  140. @live oak, SueK, and Maddie:

    I really want to thank you all for the kind words.

    My dog is my best friend on earth, the best friend that I have ever had. The only people I have ever loved more than my dog are my mom, my grandma, and my brother.

    carlyle’s quote is also excellent.

    I feel for some people who have never loved an animal. It seems to me that my life would have been much more empty without these types of bonds. I can still remember my first dog, a wonderful German Shepard named,” Fortune”, and my first cat, “Petunia”. I think I was about 3 at the time.

    Here is one of my favorite videos showing this type of bond between man and animal. It’s old, I’m sure you guys have seen it, but it brings a tear every time I see it.

  141. live oak

    Your probably right but I’m looking out over 100 acres of field and woods , one Rose , and where it’s blooming is a little strange you have to admit it.

  142. Army D.A.V.,
    I do readily admit that that one rose blooming is very strange. Perhaps it’s a message.
    I kinda see it that way.

  143. Buraq’08–
    Wonderful video. Thanks for posting it.

  144. live oak

    Thanksgiving Day.

    It’s out in my back yard by the weeping willow tree , next the the pond , on the branch of the rose bush which is hanging down over the grave of my best friend Smokey.

  145. Buraq’08,
    I loved the video!
    We have a few important things in common. I have loved animals all my life and I rescue them whenever they find me….doesn’t matter what it is. It’s always been that way.

  146. Army D.A.V.,
    How lucky you are!!!!! It’s definitely a message. Smokey is telling you no worries and he loves you and is watching over you, just like a guardian angel.

  147. Army D.A.V.,
    Maybe Kenya Boy will be out of the WH very very soon.

  148. c.n.d.e. ville II

    SueK // November 27, 2009 at 8:30 pm

    Maddie and All,

    Humor break: Speaking of religion….Church Wars!
    Hi, Sue K.

    Just hilarious. Thanks for the laughs.

    Hope you and your pets had an enjoyable Thanksgiving. I hope your bunny is still eating and mending.

  149. c.n.d.e. ville II

    Linda from NY // November 27, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    First the Impossible, Now the Improbable, in NY-23
    Thanks for this link!

    Keep shining that light on all the rot. Keep shining that light! It ain’t over yet.

  150. Maddie–thanks for your greetings and prayers! My mother isn’t too well tonight. We’ll see how she is in the morning.

    How are things with your folks?

    I get only a few minutes to post at a time now.

  151. @live oak:

    “and I rescue them whenever they find me”

    This is how I have met most of the animals in my life as well.

    Rescued two dogs and three cats off the mean streets of New Orleans prior to Katrina.

    In fact, my beloved Red Dog (a tough, old street chow) was put in my yard by a neighbor who thought he was my other chow as they looked exactly alike. Red Dog was in the yard about 24 hours where he received love and dog treats. He then broke out of the yard and left while I was out shopping.

    I was sad when I got home, because I had decided to adopt him, but he was gone. I fixed the hole under the house and went on about my business. Three days later I woke up, let my dog out, and there was Red Dog back in my yard, broke in the same way he broke out. That was it, I had been adopted. He came with a full blown case of ticks and adult heart worms.

    I had that dog for ten years. I just recently had him put down due to hind quarter paralysis. I had him cremated, then I placed his ashed in my garden under a rose bush. I miss him very much, but I know I’ll see him again.

  152. SueK–thanks for the church wars humor break. Glad someone is picking up the task of posting smiles in the meantime!

  153. God is all and is in all, even our pets. : ) His Spirit blows thru everything…all of creation. Yes, humans hold a special place in God’s heart, but he certainly created animals with all their unique charactericstics and will see them thru, whatever His plans may be. This world is much more than flesh and blood and our pets could probably fill us in on a bit more than we can see if they were able to speak to us! : )

  154. twe,
    Sorry to hear your mom’s not stronger now.
    Hope maybe tomorrow will be a bit brighter
    for her. I’m sure you bring her cheer. It’s hard.

    Thanksgiving had it’s ups and downs. Dinner
    went fine over here, but later not so good.
    Dementia is an unpredictable disease–that
    I’m finding out. I’m also finding out that you
    do not argue with the person who has it–it
    gets them more unsettled. So, it is one day
    at a time, as I’m sure it is with you and your
    mom, right? How is the eating situation?
    that’s tough, too Hard to see weight fall off
    after you try to find the most fattening things
    on earth to have them eat. I am getting fatter;
    they are getting skinnier.
    Take care, twe, and blessings and more your

  155. c.n.d.e. ville II // November 27, 2009 at 11:07 pm

    Hi c.n.d.e. ville II, I never get tired os seeing ‘Church Wars!’

    Yes, we had a pleasant day-thanks. Hope yours went well, too!

    The critters got extra veggies and a few treats. Cricket is eating well. I’m sure that the Pasteurella will recur, but I’m grateful for this little respite before we have to start battling it again!

  156. twe // November 27, 2009 at 11:16 pm

    Hi twe!

    Please let Mrs. twe know that people she doesn’t know and will never meet are praying their heads off for her!


    Susan Boyle ~ ”Wild Horses” by TommyUSA

  158. The democrats have been thugging elections since they were the party of the KKK. The democrats have used organized crime to commit mass voter fraud when they were still the party of the KKK. It’s time they clean up their third world country act.

  159. The real story here is that Doug Hoffman gave up. He did not learn that to win close elections you need to fight like your opposition for the long haul. Look at Al Franken. The election process is a fundamental core requirement to help keep society free and honest. It IS worth fighting for. All the irregularities noted in NY-23 should have been chased down and answered, all of them, no matter how long. You need to show the opposition you have resolve.

    Mr Hoffman, I am deeply disappointed in you. You were up against all odds from the DNC and RNC, and you showed it can be done. At the 11th hour of our most needed battle, you gave up. Pure and simple. Washington never gave up. Churchill never gave up in the worst of it.

    We are fighting for our country. The only way to stop the Progressive movement is at the election booth in every state, in every county, in every city, in every district no matter how small. You vote in congress from NY-23 is as powerful as a vote from a Manhattan or LA district .

    We need to draw a line and say NO MORE. Saul Alinsky won this battle. This can not continue or America WILL lose this war.

  160. ACG: Wrong? A call? If they are committing fraud, making a call is a complete waste of time. It would be like the IRS calling Al Capone and asking if he filed his taxes accurately and honestly.

    The way elections are held, ballots handled and counted and especially mail-in ballots and overseas (i.e. military) ballots needs to be fixed. Every ballot should be counted, pure and simple. You should not look at a ballot to try to determine the intent of the voter during a hand recount. Forget computer voting machine, stick with paper ballots and hole punchers that work.

    What we saw in Florida in 2000 and in the Franken mess in 2008 was pure crap and just wide open to fraud. If I person can’t vote correctly, it doesn’t count. What we saw in NY-23 looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and craps like a duck.

  161. ACG.
    What is your point?

    PS-And how in the hell would you know what I have read.
    Better come back with a credible response.

    Further checking of ACG reveals the agenda.

  162. I have no clue why Doug Hoffman gave up at the end. I think it was wrong, and he should have been extremely aggressive in the recount. Sure, he was not a seasoned, jaded, manipulative candidate – we need more of him, only they need the will to fight. The RNC was totally useless and did more harm than good.

    I use to live in NY and I know the lever machines. Where I live now, we use to use the punch cards with a poker. Pretty simple system, never heard a complaint. Now we have the Diebold touch screen, and I don’t trust them so I use easrly mail-in ballots, which are certainly prone to fraud too but I think are better than the computers. Even optical scanners are prone to fraud.

    I think it is fair to say to that everyone wants fair elections with properly operating, reliable equipment, which is quite possible to construct. As an engineering analyst, I know this is possible, and I DON’T want computer voting equipment. These are not Turing machines and as such are open to fraud and manipulation. I also want to see vigorous enforcement of election laws, and groups like ACORN prosecuted to the fullest extent and fully investigated at the slight hint of manipulation, intimidation and/or fraud. The crap that the Black Panthers in S. Philly were allowed to get away with was just horrible.

    Unfortunately, Progressives want to manipulate and control – re: global climate change hoax. And Prpgressives are dug in a like an Alabama tick (I see a lot of similarities.) It is going to take a long time to make corrections but I think the corruption is complete.

    Notice how conservative politicians wear the conservative title proudly, and liberal/progressives try to hide it. That should speak volumes about character and motive. Just look at how hard Obama tries to hide his past.

    Conservative Doug Hoffman wannabes: DON’T GIVE UP. FIGHT AS HARD FOR EVERY VOTE AS PROGRESSIVES WILL, only do it legally and be persistent. Trust, but verify.

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